Long Arm VS Short Arm

[MIMPARTY]

Hello all. Im wondering the difference. Any replies appreciated. I have a 2005 TJ X stock now but with plenty of scratches from 13 states.

[Jeffb_79]

It really depends on what your goals are. Keep in mind, most long arm lifts are priced between $2-3k while most short arm kits are between $900-$1500.
The longer control arms of the long arm kits offer better articulation. Most of the rigs with long arm lifts that I've rode in ride extremely well on road, better than stock in my opinion. Most long arm lifts will also require some modification to your exhaust.
If this is your daily driver and you don't plan on going with more than a 4" lift and 33-35 inch tires, I wouldn't waste the extra money on a long arm lift. A well put together short arm kit will work just fine.

[MIMPARTY]

Thanks that is what I have been reading. Do you have any suggestions for a short arm kit?

[Jeffb_79]

I had the rubicon express 3.5" superflex on my last jeep and it rode great for the year I had it. Although I've been hearing lately that they have issues with the bushings wearing out. If I was going to do another short arm kit, I would probably piece mine together with control arms and trackbar from currie and springs/shocks from ome.

What size lift are you looking for? Another thing to keep in mind is that any lift over 3.5" will probably require a slip yoke eliminator. 3.5" and below you could get away with a t-case drop.

The main thing I would look for in a lift is to find one that replaces the important parts... something with adjustable control arms and track bars, extended brake lines and springs, quick disco's. Most kits sell shocks seperately, I'd recommend not going cheap here cause it will affect the harshness of your ride. OME, bilsteins, re monotubes, etc.

[FrankZ]

There really is no comparison. Long Arms win in every category. Smoother on and off-road ride, greater flex and articulaton.

[Fred]

There really is no comparison. Long Arms win in every category. Smoother on and off-road ride, greater flex and articulaton.
I disagree with this staement. I have personally witnessed a well built short arm kit out wheel a Long Arm kit on comprable jeeps. It is a matter of your goals really.

[FrankZ]

More likely driver skill.

[MIMPARTY]

Thanks all. I am looking at 3.5 or less because i am keeping the jeep as a daily driver for now.

[korisu56]

I would follow Jeff_79's advice. No more than 3.5, piece that sucker together. I have a 4.5" Super Flex from Rubicon Express and have been very happy with it, but if I could do it again, I'd piece it together so that I could have adjustable lowers too.

[yellow_snocone]

im think of doing the same thing getting a 3.5 any ideas on where to look for all the extras

[hillybillyjeep08]

I have good luck with Rough Country they have a 2.5 long arm kit for $1,499

[Doppler]

I'm running a bastardized 3.5"! Rusty's offroad coils, ProComp stage II lower control arms (inverted for better break over angle but still have to finish my clearancing on the mounting brackets where I rub) ProComp ES3000 shocks, Rugged Ridge HD steering, ProComp ES2000 steering stabilizer, drop pitman arm, adjustable front trac bar, clearing 31's with plenty of room to flex when disconnected. Will be going to 35's and 4.56's soon! Plan to limit some of my upward travel and rely on more droop for crawling. I eventually plan to convert to a long arm but am building as I can afford too. I'll post some updated pics soon.

Main thing is start where you can afford to. 3 - 3.5 inches you can get by with factory control arms and cam bolts for caster adjustment. You can even put cam bolts in the factory rear uppers to adjust for pinion angle, at least on the '06 TJ but figure they should all be the same as far as control arms. Just don't lift before you can afford tires and wheels to fill the newly created gap in wheel well clearance or we can't guarantee you won't be harrased when you post your pics looking like a monster truck with it's trailer tires on! Good luck and have fun.

[SavageSun4x4]

18100
Well I am not here to OFFEND anyone so don't nobody go get all butt hurt...OK? :) Simple question and a VERY complex answer.

1) Its VERY difficult to compare but in the following tech discussion I will attempt to do so.

2) "Up to about 3.5 inches, the long arm offers very little advantage over SA.As you go past 3.5 inches its clearly advantage LA. Or so it would seem, however that is another thread, but for purposes of this discussion LA is holding most of the cards as the lift passes the 3.5 inch mark. When speaking of SA Vs LA its the TJ in terms of SA = OEM length and OEM attachment points. LA=uses the axle attachment points and locates the opposite ends of the arms somewhere past the OEM attachment points.

A way of looking at this:
Your max point of articulation is 90 degrees up and 90 degrees down ( in theory) you can go no further than that. As you lift your rig you are using 'x' inches of your max lift.

The LENGTH of you control arms is the max of your suspensions limits up or down. Lets say you have 12 in long lower control arms. Then the max you suspension will articulate downward (droop) is 12". This would be the CA hanging straight down thus the max is 12 inches.
NOTE: From level ground plane the arm can move downward the max of the length of the lower arm. That said the arm is attached at the rear (fulcrum point) thus the arm moves downward in an arc and takes MORE than 12" of travel to move. Arc Vs straight line distance. In other words, it’s further AROUND than going in a straight line.

Albeit the angles are the same, the shorter the arm the faster is moves thru the arc. Make the 'V' sign with two fingers; note how the DISTANCE from one finger tip to the other is further than the distance from knuckle to knuckle.

Easy to see how SA uses up the distance traveled quicker and the higher the lift the more the SA is angled DOWNWARD to START with. If you had 12" SA and did a 12" lift the arms would be straight down, thus no articulation. The solution is to MOVE the FULCRUM POINT further away, thus longer arms.

Having said that, let my punctuate with an old axiom 'there is no free lunch'. Meaning that long arms also have their drawbacks. The most common being a loss of ground clearance as the arm articulates downward or the loss of upward movement due to the arm running out of upward space to move.

That said, If you want to move to a LA sometime after your SA has been in place you will need: New arms, shocks, adjustable track arms f/r, possible new coil springs, new brake lines, etc.

A lot of this more or less depends on whether or not you raise your Jeep in the process of going LA. In fact, you can go LA and change nothing but the arms themselves.

Other than the fulcrum, point it’s about all is the same, but by moving that fulcrum point deeper into the center section of the rig, you slow down the speed of the arc as the arm articulates. Or another way of saying the arc of the LA is wider and the SA is quicker or much tighter.
Place a dime and a quarter on a piece of paper and draw a circle around the edge of each. The dime is a SA whereas the quarter is the LA, based upon the center to the outer edge of each which represents the length of the arm.

The LA will allow you to lift higher and not shorten your WB as quick or as much.There is a lot more, but I need a chalkboard and your presence to go much deeper. Suffice to say, 4 inches or less and LA/SA are about the same, beyond 4 inches and you need to consider LA.
LA does give a better highway ride. That said if you want a better ride either put about $4k worth of the airbags all the way around or use the money as a down payment for a Caddy.Note: The FartSac suspension is a whole ‘nother thread.
If you plan on lifting more than 4 inches, then go LA, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, well almost...don't forget CoG.
On the other hand, if you really do not want to lift beyond 4 inches then the LA provides very little advantage at a greater expense.

Recommendations:
1) Up to about <2.5 in MAX the OEM CA arms will suffice
2) Up to about 3 in MAX adjustable lowers, OEM uppers
4) 3 - 4.0 MAX upper/lower adjustable CA (> 3.5 in of lift and short arms are worthless)
5) >4.0 in long arms

I fully endorse, recommend, and run JKS Control arms (http://store.jksmfg.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CONTROLARMS&Store_Code=JKS01&Category_Code=Coil_Spring). The recommendation is based upon their use and performance characteristics. Other CA may provide a different set of results.

Finally, lets address ‘droop steer’:
Droop steer is a progressive thing and increases in direct proportion to the amount of droop.What happens is the TB which swings down, like control arms, but does it towards the drivers side of your rig forcing your axles outward.
Things might not be so bad but the f/r axles don't work in tandem with each other.The result is your rear axle might be several inches out to the left of your rig whereas the front axle is dead under.

direction of movement:^
Front axle track: ||<
Rear axle track: >||

The front axle droops to the drivers side. The TB's fulcrum point is at the frame thus the TB drop down and to the left (drivers).
Jeep designed it this way to offset each axle under off road and on road conditions instead of both axles moving in the same direction away from the Jeep. If it did this would make the Jeep VERY unstable in off camber situations on the opposite side of droop.
The rear axle fulcrum point is also at the frame on the passenger side thus is drops and swing to the passenger side.

Bottom line is the rear of your rig is going in one direction and trying to pass you while the front end is also trying to go forward but on a different track.What is happening is it is stressing your driveline in an angular direction.Like so. \ \
Hard on your rig!Moreover, this binding is a major contributor to the vertical bouncing in the rear that soon will show it ugly head and wreak all havoc, most often resulting in breakage and catastrophic breakage.

What the other suspension mods do is remove the TB and allow the rear to follow the front more closely and keeps the track line under the rig.
Now consider the addition of long arms with their significant droop and the resulting angularity and catastrophic failure path.
Go high (>3.5 inches), go long arm, then go tri-link for sure. Rig will perform better AND suffer less breakage in the long run.

That said you might want to consider some other factors such as Center of Gravity and Weight Distribution and how it affects your off-roading. You might want to review this article:


Nth Degree on CoG & WD (http://www.savagesun4x4.com/enter/viewpoints-technical_discus/nth_degree_on_cog_-_wd.html)

(http://www.savagesun4x4.com/enter/viewpoints-technical_discus/nth_degree_on_cog_-_wd.html)
It is not how high you lift it, but how you lift it high."


If the above link does not work then use this: http://www.savagesun4x4.com/enter/viewpoints-technical_discus/nth_degree_on_cog_-_wd.html

[mcgoo26]

wow! :eek: that was kinda deep.

[skipwheat]

i am a full hard believe in short arms i run 2.5 ome springs and rokmen short arms (all custom setup though) and i couldnt ask for more flex and she rides just as smooth now as when i bought her brand new in 2005. i ran chinamens in colorado a little while back and myself and the other guys with freaks were on short arms and never once had a problem a guy with another lj tagged along with us and was running longarms and he couldnt take the same lines over and through several of the obstacles we went on because his rear arms kept causing him to lift his rear tires or he was constantly using them as sliders it wasnt pretty by any means.

[SavageSun4x4]

I certainly am with you on the SA approach. What SA does is FORCE you to run low lifts. In short (no pun intended) the largest obstacle you have on the trails is off camber and if you want to win at the off camber game then its CoG you must have on your side.

Impact of lifts on CoG: To maintain your CoG you need to increase your tread width 1 1/2 in for every inch you lift...GENERALLY speaking. At 5 inch lift, add 7 1/2 inches to your tread width, or more. The way my Rubicon was setup I was good for a solid 50 degrees off camber to either side. And trust me I went there often. I have never had anyone stay in the Jeep with me when I did they ALWAYS want out before I get that far...and yes I have flopped it a time or two.

[trailsnail]

As with everything else, figure out what you want in the long run and then make your decision. I have a long arm and love it, but as mentioned above, I have used them as sliders before because the angles of the rocks here in colorado. Others here have short arms and they didn't have those problems.

[skipwheat]

there are however unfortunate drawbacks to the low cog setup, while we dont use our control arms as sliders and we're probably a lot more stable our belly height can be a limiter, i've had enough times where i couldn't get on something simply because my belly was just too low, though i suppose with a flat belly this could give us low cog guys another couple of inches of clearance either way, this is one of those arguments that will go on forever just like auto vs manual (manual wins this one haha) JEEP vs well everyone else who thinks they can manufacture a 4x4 or any of those other crazy arguments that we all come up with when we're drunk sitting around the camp fire.

[SavageSun4x4]

there are however unfortunate drawbacks to the low cog setup, while we dont use our control arms as sliders and we're probably a lot more stable our belly height can be a limiter, i've had enough times where i couldn't get on something simply because my belly was just too low, though i suppose with a flat belly this could give us low cog guys another couple of inches of clearance either way, this is one of those arguments that will go on forever just like auto vs manual (manual wins this one haha) JEEP vs well everyone else who thinks they can manufacture a 4x4 or any of those other crazy arguments that we all come up with when we're drunk sitting around the camp fire.
Skip,
Very sage view. It is really a paradox, meaning this is both a yes and no answer. Clearly the vest solution is to hit the trails looking like a slammed low rider. Problem is we then cannot get over the curb to the trailhead. Our wheeling buddy who has a lift by NoseBleed which comes with a parachute packed in it not only drives over the curb but does not bother to unlock the gate as he can clear it. I get winched and catch up to my buddy and our first obstacle is a small left leaning hill. I drive up and just as he follows and gets his rear tires past the base of the hill he flops and he bails out of his rig yelling GERONIMO as he pulls the rip cord. He being the guy he is, tells me it was the left leaning hill's fault just like those damn left leaning DimOkrats, but I was sure it was his somewhat high Jeep...

That said there are way to mitigate the situation and somewhat achieve a balance. I have stated this in other threads and I will say it agin. The best mod you can make is to eliminate the shovel that hangs under your Jeep and go with a Tummy Tuck like AEV-Nth Degree. BAR NONE. This provides what I call a 'free lift', smooths out the under carriage and allows your rig to traverse obstacles that others cannot with long arms and bigger lifts.

I can take a TJ, throw on a 3 in lift, short arms and 37 meats and spank any trail in Moab and am talking 4+++ stuff. NOTE its really not as simple as stated there are LOTS of tricks involved to do it but bottom line its still a 3" lift, 37's and short arms.

On two occasions I have been asked to rescue someone in Pritchet Canyon Moab, known as one of the most difficult of trails there and in the US by any mag. I have run it TWICE by myself and there are not shortcuts or drive around's. And yes it was in my Jeep with a 3 in lift, 37's and short arms.

Be happy to tell you and show you what needs to be done to do it, no secrets here. You can start with getting the underside of your Jeep clean, and smooth as possible.

I tell my clients: Its NOT how high you build it, but how you build it high.

Manual Vs Auto: For guys like me that did not own a auto transmission car until 2010, my F 350 truck, there is no doubt in my mind that the stick is far better. BUT all things being equal, the auto trans holds the ace cards.