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Thread: Technical question, you mudders out there help me out!

  1. #1
    Rubber Ducky roh8880's Avatar
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    Default Technical question, you mudders out there help me out!

    Ok, I have been doing a lot of reading while I'm stuck on day-on day-off Staff Duty, and I keep reading about the "suction factor" when getting bogged in thick mud. This is when there isn't any air to displace at the base of the tire and it makes your Jeep "feel" 10x heavier. The winch lbs. to Jeep weight ratio for mud boggers should be 2.5 to 1 (as opposed to trail climbers 1.5 to 1 minimum) specifically for this "suction factor".

    What if I told you that you could eliminate the suction factor altogether with a 3/8 in. pipe and an air compressor? (All the smart ones out there just had a light go off in their heads by now.) For those who are a little slow, if you have ever shot-gunned a beer, you know that air displacement is crucial for proper flow. The same with getting your Jeep out of the thick mud. Shove the 3/8 in. (or whatever size pipe you have or get to work) into the mud as close to the tire as you can get it and pump air into it, and Viola! You are displacing the air at the base of the tire and your Jeep can be winched out more easily.

    How many of you out there think that this can be a marketable idea? Anyone want to help with design? Vendors, would you sell this in your shops? Mudders, would you use this? Feedback would be awesome. Then again, there is probably some other person who thought of this and has a product like it on the shelves by now . . . (asshole)
    I carry a gun because cops don't fit in my holster.



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    Senior Member HillBillE's Avatar
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    Good idea....in theory.

    All mud is different, from soupy to sticky. And the 'suction factor' works on more than just the tires. It affects the axles, suspension, frame, basically whatever the is in the mud, is creating resistance.

    It's a good idea, just not viable, in my opinion.

    If you could design such a device, and granted you could devise something for just the tire area, for the cost, a guy could just get a beefier winch.


    Now, general rule of thumb is as you stated, 1.5 times winch to weight of rig. And that works even in the mud when the vehicle has running, and able to 'help' the winch out.

    99% of the time (unless you run a lot of mud) a winch at 1.5 times the rigs weight will work.

    Dead rig, broken driveshaft, toasted diff and stuck in the mud? Then you want a winch at 2-1 ratio!


    Becuase I know from experience, laying in the mud replacing a driveshaft, aint no fun!


    As long as the people remain armed,
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  3. #3
    Rubber Ducky roh8880's Avatar
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    The pipes could be driven into the thick mud via "picket pounder" and hooked up to a compressor. You would need one for each tire, and maybe one for certain areas under the frame or diffs. The compressor would have to be a bit of a work horse to pump for all the pipes, but it would work.
    I carry a gun because cops don't fit in my holster.



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    That Guy afjeep's Avatar
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    sounds like it could be useful in some situations but to throw pipes under all four tires, and parts of the frame seems a bit like too much work. double up the winch line and go with it.
    2004 Rubi, Poison Spyder Bumper with Trail Stinger. Warn M8000 winch, Rock Krawler X-factor long arm 4 inch lift, 35x12.50x15 BFG KM2s on Procomp 8 inch steelies, Tom Woods Driveshaft, Poison Syder Full Roll Cage, Tuff Designs rear bumper/Tire carrier, MetalCloak Arched Tube Fenders with 6 Inch Flares, Flowmaster Hushpower Muffler, Vanco Big Disk Brake upgrade, Line-X'd tub and cage.

  5. #5
    Senior Member SavageSun4x4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillBillE View Post
    Good idea....in theory.

    All mud is different, from soupy to sticky. And the 'suction factor' works on more than just the tires. It affects the axles, suspension, frame, basically whatever the is in the mud, is creating resistance.

    It's a good idea, just not viable, in my opinion.

    If you could design such a device, and granted you could devise something for just the tire area, for the cost, a guy could just get a beefier winch.


    Now, general rule of thumb is as you stated, 1.5 times winch to weight of rig. And that works even in the mud when the vehicle has running, and able to 'help' the winch out.

    99% of the time (unless you run a lot of mud) a winch at 1.5 times the rigs weight will work.

    Dead rig, broken driveshaft, toasted diff and stuck in the mud? Then you want a winch at 2-1 ratio!


    Becuase I know from experience, laying in the mud replacing a driveshaft, aint no fun!
    I am not a mudder, in fact I do all I can to avoid it...BUT my brother in law loved it like a 3 year old. I did enjoy going with him and his buds and I learned a lot just by watching the 'stucks' from the 'suction' factor. I can assure you tires are not what sucks.

    However you are on to something. Where they got stuck so to speak was floor to mud. The metal floor of the interior of the rigs sticks to the mud like instant glue and when it does its HELL getting it out. Makes rock crawling look tame in some respects.

    What a lot of the serious mudders do is drill holes on the floors and put rubber stoppers in them. when they get sucked down they start pulling the stoppers and yes using a hose and air compressor to blow some air in between the floor the mud.

    You theory is correct, but its not the tires.

    Talk to some of the mudders and you will hear suck-stuck stories that will make your eyes spin in your head. Those guys rip and bend 10k tow hooks like paper clips, frame horns are often reinforced out of CHROMO steel. My b-i-l had 4 tow hooks up front and 4 in back. They laugh at 9500 lb winches, lot of them use the hydraulic and other industrial winch configurations. Even then it will take 4 rigs to pull out one rig. Lots of yank straps. I have seen some amazingly stuck rigs.

    They spend money on their rigs like its water. While they rarely break u joints and they kinds of stuff we do, they EAT brakes, tranny's TC's and u joints, bearings of all kinds. A lot of mud contains sand, quartz and silicone crystals finer than the eye can see. It grinds down any metal to metal surface and grease only holds the stuff in.

    Mudding is for those with DEEP pockets...
    Don

    '15 Jeep Unlimited Rubicon Hard Rock...OLD SCHOOL 6 Spd Manual Trans
    17 Oaks Ranch Companies LLC

    www.savagesun4x4.com

  6. #6
    Senior Member HillBillE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageSun4x4 View Post
    .... Where they got stuck so to speak was floor to mud. The metal floor of the interior of the rigs sticks to the mud like instant glue and when it does its HELL getting it out....
    And that's one of the main reasons you see mud trucks with 12" lifts!

    @roh8880 : How about a 'pre plumbed' system? Fixtures that go through the floor/bed pans, with airlines hooked up to them.

    Get sucked down, just hit a valve and the air from the tank blows through, breaking the suction. That might work!


    As long as the people remain armed,
    government knows that it cannot rule over the people by force.
    Those who stand in defiance of unconstitutional laws
    do so out of duty, honor, oath and love of country.


    "Certified Jeep Junky!"


  7. #7
    Member 19delta's Avatar
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    only real way to know if it would work, is to find the deepest mud pit you can find. trick is to get yourself stuck! now with the mud bogg drag racing that i have done. gearing can help just like the horsepower. but, you don't have to have the meanest rig out there to get through. lightweight trucks will mostly run circles around the big heavy ones in the mud. having a good set of tires that are tall a fat, like the ones i use, get me through 95% of the time.

    i am running a gear ratio for 28" tires, and have 34"s, my jeep maybe makes about 130 horses max. and i have beaten trucks with 800 hspwr that weighed 3 times more than i did. yet i have been beaten by the same trucks the next race. so it's really luck!
    "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageSun4x4 View Post
    Talk to some of the mudders and you will hear suck-stuck stories that will make your eyes spin in your head. Those guys rip and bend 10k tow hooks like paper clips, frame horns are often reinforced out of CHROMO steel. My b-i-l had 4 tow hooks up front and 4 in back. They laugh at 9500 lb winches, lot of them use the hydraulic and other industrial winch configurations. Even then it will take 4 rigs to pull out one rig. Lots of yank straps. I have seen some amazingly stuck rigs.


    Mudding is for those with DEEP pockets...
    i disagree with mudding is for those with money. ever been to AZUSA canyon? lots of shoestring rigs with HUG axles from schit like school buses, tractors, and rocks. big ole AG tires that are usually second hand, someone elses throwout, or sometimes an expensive set of swampers.

    im my past ive made a few trips to actual mudding areas and hated life the for all but the 15 seconds it took to run through the pit. the last trip, i vowed to myself last trip to a mud place, cost me a 35 spline 9" shaft.

    here enjoy! (im the YJ with boatsides, 38" swampers, and stuck)

    http://www.jeepaholics.com/support/T...px?PageIndex=7

  9. #9
    Rubber Ducky roh8880's Avatar
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    @ HillBillE
    The pre-plumbed system is a fantastic idea! Have a dedicated tank linked to the pre-installed lines in the frame and next to the diffs all controlled by a driver or TC operated valve. The tank could be either pre charged or charge via DC compressor or pump. The issue that I can forsee is exactly how much air do you think would be sufficient to break loose the vehicle from the "suck-o-stuck" mud? But the tank size, usually measured in US gallons, this is not as important as it might seem. A compressor tank doesn't produce air, it only stores air. It is much more important to have a big enough pump and motor, because if you are producing as much air as you want to use, you'll never run out of air no matter how small the tank is.
    I carry a gun because cops don't fit in my holster.



    [_____]
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  10. #10
    Senior Member SavageSun4x4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 91YEEPER View Post
    i disagree with mudding is for those with money. ever been to AZUSA canyon? lots of shoestring rigs with HUG axles from schit like school buses, tractors, and rocks. big ole AG tires that are usually second hand, someone elses throwout, or sometimes an expensive set of swampers.

    im my past ive made a few trips to actual mudding areas and hated life the for all but the 15 seconds it took to run through the pit. the last trip, i vowed to myself last trip to a mud place, cost me a 35 spline 9" shaft.

    here enjoy! (im the YJ with boatsides, 38" swampers, and stuck)

    http://www.jeepaholics.com/support/T...px?PageIndex=7
    I just saw the bucks my brother in law put into his rig and it was staggering. My sister found a shoebox hidden in his closet that had $74k in receipts. This was in the mid 80's, that is a lot of money even today. Granted his rig was first class. Late 70's or early 80's Chevy Blazer, B&M tranny and some engine he had to drive half way across the US to pickup, 454 Chevy based big torque and HP.

    He wheeled N texas and its a muddy slurry of sand and clay. That sand ATE metal surfaces. I would swear he replaced more bearings, u joints etc than he changed underwear. But I rarely remember of him breaking stuff like we do, except his transmission which seemed to ingest water on a regular basis...

    Just seemed like a high buck sport even if you go easy on the go pedal. I got a friend of mine who wheels a near bone stock TJ D 35, 33's and this guy is a EZ rider, he never breaks and never spends much. By the oppsite side of the coin he is not out running the 3.5 + trails unless they have a lot of go-around. But if you get in that mud at all its going to eat away at your rig, cannot keep from it.
    Don

    '15 Jeep Unlimited Rubicon Hard Rock...OLD SCHOOL 6 Spd Manual Trans
    17 Oaks Ranch Companies LLC

    www.savagesun4x4.com

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